NatGeo: Mars Ep. 4-6 – OK, WE GET IT. DRAMA | The Synthesis

Lacey and Alex discuss the National Geographic series, MARS, episodes 4-6. A dude obsessed with plants, a giant dust storm, someone killing themselves by opening an airlock, someone being electrocuted, and discovering microbes on Mars. You get the jist, let’s have Lace and Alex break. it. DOWN.

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Hey, folks, this is Alexander Winn and I am Lacey Hannan, And you are watching The Synthesis, podcast or show where we talk about using real science in entertainment. This episode, we are talking about episodes four through six of National Geographic’s Mars. 


why don’t you sound a little bit more excited about it? Cuz it’s 


National Geographics. Mars, you know, as we went into last week, this is a show that I desperately wanted to like. And I will say this, I don’t know if I actually know if you’re going to agree with me on this. But I will say that I think that these three episodes are stronger than the first three episodes. Partially, I think that that’s because we just have more characters. And you just spread it out a little bit. You know, when you’re restricted to just 

those crew members, you’re sort of stuck with like, oh, the captain is injured. And that’s kind of all that’s going on. Whereas now you’ve got more people. And it’s a sort of a broader story. But the other thing that I enjoy a little bit more about the second half of the season is, in a weird way, for all the sort of conversation that goes on in popular culture, about building cities on Mars, building outposts on Mars, building scientific stations on Mars, and all that kind of stuff. You don’t really see it. Like you, we have some movies like The Martian, and then, you know, sort of lesser versions of that like mission to Mars, or red planet, or, you know, movies about the first landing on Mars, the first people when they’re only like two or three people on the planet. And then we’ve got movies, like, you know, Ad Astra or the expanse where there are cities on Mars, and there are 1000s, or millions of people on Mars. But I can’t actually think of pretty much any other story. Live Action. That is, like 50 people on Mars? 


Well, but I don’t think they get credit just for being the first No, 


but what I’m saying is that I enjoy it a little bit more, because it’s unique, because this is a thing that I have yet to see. Yeah, 


my my thing is, is that I wanted to see that, yeah, but they skipped over so much of the engineering and the like, how it would work. And they jumped straight from this crew of, you know, five people to a larger group. And we didn’t actually see, you know, at one point, they talk about the stages, and the documentary aspect of what we might do on Mars, and they say, we’ll do exploration, and then some sort of research station, and then we’ll do resupply from Earth and rope, rotate people in and out like Antarctica. And they use McMurdo as an analogue, which is the the place down on Antarctica. But then they don’t take the stages any further than that. Yeah. Which I thought was a little bit weird. But there’s a reason for that. Yeah. Keep going. We’ll get to McMurdo I’ve got a bone to pick with McMurdo. 


Oh, okay. Well, so, you know, they, they don’t take the stages of what they’re going to do on Mars, they don’t go beyond those three, the exploration Research Station, and then the resupply from earthen, and switching people in and out. And I was just like, Wait, how are we going? Like, are we going to get to see any of the engineering or the policy? Or the politics come together? Or even just the people? Yeah. Because, you know, one of the quotes is, how does policy, engineering and politics come together to produce great science? Well, we don’t see any of that happen. And science has done so yeah, I’ve just like I was really frustrated, because I wanted to see what you’re talking about. And we don’t really get to see it, 


we get it in a montage, which I think is probably my favorite moment in the entire show. It’s at the beginning of Episode Four. Because remember, Episode Three ended with like, hey, we’ve made a base, we have a place now to stay. We’re here we have a home, we can start really getting to work. And then Episode Four starts. And there’s this really cool montage where you can see them like building new things, and more people are arriving and rockets are coming and going and they’re building up the infrastructure. And literally, the first note that I have here written down is Episode Four, Time Lapse, finally some momentum because you do start to get that energy of you know, the the frontier town, and it was so cool. And they’re introducing new characters and now we’ve got you know, these people coming in, and then just before too long, we’re just back to back to those low gazes and mournful looks. And it’s just like, Guys, you had it like you did it. We know you can do it. Come on. 


Well, I felt like part of part of the problem that we had is, you know, we see that the hab is being turned over. To expert scientists. Well, what were the people that were already there? Yeah. Because Marta, is the only scientists doing what she’s doing is seemingly, yeah, of looking for life on Mars, which seems like she would not be the only one doing that. 


Right. When we met, it made sense with the crew of six, that shouldn’t be the only one. But you think that you’d have like an assistant or something now?  


Yeah, exactly. So I don’t know. So I think it’s kind of weird that they turned, what they what they talk about is by handing over the hab to these expert scientists, it means that the crew that we’re following are the administrators. That doesn’t feel right, either. They are also expert scientists. So I don’t really know what distinction they’re trying to make, other than trying to set up this like, conflict and conflict of wills, a battle of wills, you know, and I just, and it just felt forced. 


Well, and they didn’t, for me, at least, they weren’t ever even really clear about what the chain of command is. Because when Dr. Richardson arrives, she definitely starts throwing your weight around like she’s in charge. You know, like, there’s even a moment where somebody asks, did Hannah approve that? And she says, I told her Yes. Which means I don’t answer to her. But then, as soon as things start going wrong, she has to answer to Hannah like that’s, that’s what happens is, she’s chagrined. And Hannah is putting her foot down. So who is in charge here? Is this is, is one of them in charge of construction, and the other is in charge of emergency response? Or like, it was never clear to me what exactly was the handoff of power? 


Well, and I think that part of the problem is they don’t explain a lot of things. You know, they kind of touch on what Dr. Richardson does. And they touch on what Paul does. Before you see him being obsessive, the plant guy. 


Yeah. But they talk about his work and phosphorus something and, you know, they and then they talk about this conflict between Hannah and the scientists, but we don’t really know what the conflict is about. And I and he was excited to meet this Doc, like this scientist. Yeah, everybody there has read her work and all of these things. So 


it doesn’t seem like they have a pre existing beef, which seems like it probably would have made more sense if these two kind of hated each other from back on Earth, and like they’re putting put together because they are the two biggest experts. But being the two biggest experts, they kind of butt heads a lot. Yeah, 


I don’t know, I just felt like the the explanation for the science. And even the story is just lacking. And I’m like, Well, okay, first of all, we want to see, we want to see this story being told, and the science being shown in a way that we’re going to follow and we’re going to enjoy and, and get to kind of get into, you know, make it a little crunchy for us. I think the only people who are watching the show, want it to get a little crunchy. Talk about the science, but they don’t do any of it. Well, the science but also, you know, I 


I’ve been thinking a lot about sort of where exactly did this show lose me. And there are a few points you know, like it definitely leans too heavily into the dramatic looks and the the long pauses like it’s it’s very slow and that sort of thing. But honestly, I feel like they missed. You know, every show, whether it’s educational or scientific or not, always needs to know its audience. And I feel like they missed an important part of their audience with this show. And interestingly, it’s something that I also feel like the Star Trek franchise has lost recently, which, if you’re a Star Trek fan, you may or may not be watching Star Trek discovery, which is current, the current show that is running in the Star Trek franchise, and it’s, I am not really into Star Trek discovery. And I’ve been wrestling with why and ultimately, what I decided was, it’s because Star Trek discovery is an adventure Star Trek discovery is fundamentally about going out and kind of kicking ass like saving the day. And that was kind of true of the 60s show, to whatever extent a TV show in the 1960s could kick ass but it was it was an adventure. But the Star Trek that I fell in love with was Star Trek The Next Generation and the 90 shows, which seem like an adventure. But if you really think about it, if you really go back and watch those shows now, what they are workplace shows, they belong alongside the West Wing, those are shows about people just doing their jobs. And as much as there is like saving the galaxy stuff. There’s also a lot of just like, yeah, I’m working the night shift this week. It’s been pretty rough. Like they just kind of talk about what it’s like to live on a spaceship. And they have whole episodes that are just about like, sort of keeping up morale and entire episodes that are about like, hey, the lights are going out and jordiz got to go fix the lights. 

What’s wrong with the lights, man? Like why can’t you figure out the power grid that kind of stuff is what brings that Star Trek world to life. And I feel like that’s what was missing from this show. Anybody who’s going to watch a National Geographic show about an outpost on Mars doesn’t just want action and drama. What they want is, what would it be like to live on Mars? And they skipped that part. they skipped the mundane day to day just kind of like sitting around eating your breakfast talking about Mars. And that should have been there. That’s what I wanted. 


Can I Can we just talk about Paul for a second? Because we must. So I had on here that, that the AI is the new Ben because I hate the AI. And then I realized the AI is not the new Captain Ben. There, there are people on the show that I hate far more than Captain Ben, which, according to Alex, I got very red face last week in talking about this, and I should you know, No, he didn’t tell me to tone it. I did. But he No, he would not do that. But also he was like, yeah, you were a little intense about it. There are people I hate more than that. But um, and I will say that Paul is one of them. I don’t know why his wife gets called doctor and their last name and he gets called Paul. My guess is that he he has a doctor is gonna break like, whatever. I just think it’s a weird choice. 


Just maybe she comes across as more professional than he does. And so he’s just naturally Yeah, so listen, you guys, I, I just like, he comes off as inept, like not not inept, intellectually, but physically, and mentally incapable of being here. from the get go. And I’m sitting here going, this guy is so intense, and they do call him intense. At one point, they call that out, they lampshade it or whatever. But he seems like the kind of intense that is not healthy. From the moment we meet him. And I’m sitting here going, why? Why is he allowed to be here? 


Yeah, this is this is not somebody who cracked under the pressure. This is somebody who was clearly unhappy to be here at all. Literally, the first shot that we ever get of him, is him kind of freaking out in the rocket landing. He’s He’s like, kind of hyperventilating and she reaches over and grabs his hand. He’s like, I’m okay. I’m okay. It’s like, if you’re stressed out about a rocket landing. What are you doing going to Mars? Yeah. Like, you shouldn’t be working back from Earth and just telling them what to do. Yeah, 


the whole, like, if we’re at the point where we’re going to start, you know, doing the rotating people in and out. Your wife did not need you here. And you could have done this work from from Earth. 


And it seems like you would have preferred it. 


And he’s like, loudly, creepy. Yeah. Because the way that he talks about things, like talks about his plants is obsessive. And I find it disturbing. Like it’s disturbed from the get go. And I thought it was very weird that Javier was like, finally I don’t have to do everything on my own. And I’m sitting here going, dude, watch out. This guy might murder you in your sleep. 


Yeah, you snip the wrong leaf. And he’s gonna freak out in a jealous rage. Yeah, 


so I don’t know, I just, I mean, there’s a lot more about him as we move through these episodes. But I just need to put it out there now that he freaks me out from the very beginning. And I don’t know why he’s allowed to be here, where the psychologists,  


I did think there was an interesting thing in the writing. Which is, and I may be bringing something to this because this definitely has echoes of the expanse in my mind. But you know, a lot of hard sci fi, that features a Mars with its own population, there quickly becomes this sense that they are no longer beings of Earth, they are Martians, they have their own identity and that sort of stuff. And so there’s language that develops around, you know, calling, calling people from Earth earthers. And there’s kind of an us versus them thing that happens. And I wonder if this was conscious in the writers mind, but Dr. Richardson keeps referring to the Mars base as up here. She keeps talking about, you know, how things are done up here. And what you guys have done up here, and it establishes her as not being of here. It’s it establishes her as having an earth based perspective on what’s going on here. Right and everybody else is just talking about here. It’s just the place that we live. It’s what we need to do. It’s how we’re going to survive and she keeps Talking about what we’re going to do up here. Like it’s not? 


Well, and I think that that, yeah, I think that there’s something really insightful about that. Because what I think one of the ways that I know we are good travelers too, especially together is because every time we go somewhere, it could be for a weekend, it happened this weekend, we celebrated our anniversary. So we took a little road trip. And the first night we’re out to dinner, and at the end, he said, was it time to go home? Everything becomes home, wherever we are together is home, it’s fine. It doesn’t need to be our place. Yeah, in LA. And I think that there’s something important about being able to feel comfortable wherever. And she obviously doesn’t. 


Yeah, I will say this in in, not in defense of the show, but you know, sort of advocating for the show. I do appreciate that. While there’s too much drama in this show. I do recognize that. Like, I wish that this kind of clash of egos, you know, pulling rank kind of stuff wasn’t realistic, but it is realistic. And I will say, I don’t think that in a realistic scenario that Paul would be sent because I don’t think he would have passed the psychological screening. But I do think that Dr. Richardson is exactly the kind of person who’s going to make her way into a Martian outpost before too long, and she’s going to start pissing people off. And that is very realistic. And similarly, later in the episode, we realize that two of the original crew members have started a romantic relationship. And again, it’s kind of soapy. But at the same time, that’s very realistic, you can’t send three, three men and three women who are presumably mostly heterosexual, and not expect some of them to hook up at some point over the years and years and years that they’re going to be there. And so I did appreciate that from a realism standpoint. So 


I want to jump back to something you’ve said, because we’ve hit the the narrative portion of Episode Four. A lot. Yeah. So tell me what your beef is with the Antarctic stuff. Antarctica stuff. 


Alright. So for those of you who follow our YouTube channel, you may have seen I have a video on that channel called Bill Nye and Neil deGrasse Tyson are wrong. And it’s basically a half hour rant that I will summarize now, because it’s about McMurdo Station, and you can 100% tell that they talked to Neil deGrasse Tyson, and probably Bill Nye as they were making this show. And they told them something that informed this episode of the show, and it drives me nuts. Andy, Andy Weir actually says the same thing. A lot of these people wait, he 


says the same thing as those two 


as those two? Yeah. Okay. A lot of these people who hold themselves up as sort of the the arbiters of how it would really work, argue that any city on Mars is going to be fundamentally similar to McMurdo Station. That’s like their talking point. If you ask, you know, it’s it’s kind of weird, Neil deGrasse Tyson and Bill Nye two of the biggest futurists around, neither of them believe that there are going to be cities on Mars. They just don’t think that humans will ever live on Mars, the way we live on Earth. They think that all humans on Mars forever, will be like McMurdo Station. It’ll just be a scientific outpost that a few weeks ago. So. So here’s why that’s ridiculous. Because McMurdo Station is like an hour’s flight from South America. And if you get appendicitis, they don’t treat you there. They met a vacu. And if you run out of food, or if a building burns down, they bring you supplies. And whatever goes wrong, you don’t address it there. You get flown somewhere true, because you can’t get in and out of there all year round. 


But for most of the year, it is depopulated. There are a couple of people who live there year round, but for most for a significant portion of the year, all the scientists go home, because it’s not safe. And they don’t have a big permanent presence there. Whereas on Mars, you are at least nine months away from Earth. Like if the crisis happens right at exactly the right time, you are nine months away from Earth, if it happens at exactly the wrong time. You’re like three years away from Earth. So whatever happens, you have to fix it there. If you have a medical emergency, it needs to be addressed. On Mars. If a woman gets pregnant, she’s too far away from Earth to come home. She’s having that baby on Mars. If something breaks, you have to be able to fix it on Mars. Whatever happens, it happens on Mars. What that means is and I actually talked about this in the episode, you have to aim for self sufficiency. You cannot rely on Earth, because if something goes wrong, you have to be able to to address it. There. But here’s the key. As soon as you have a situation where people don’t have to come back to Earth, people won’t, there will be people who will want to come back to earth and they won’t have to come back to Earth. So they will stay on Mars. And as soon as you have people who stay on Mars forever, as soon as you have medical facilities, and entertainment and food and every, you know, industrial production and everything that you need for a community on Mars, that’s a city. That is a population that is going to grow, the people who don’t leave Mars are going to have kids and those kids are going to grow up on Mars. And then it just keeps growing. You have the industrial capacity to repair a hab, which means you by definition, had the industrial capacity to build a hab. So why wouldn’t you build a new hab for your new family? It will automatically grow? 


I think I think that having kids there is like pretty far off. I think that the likelihood is a woman gets pregnant, and however you feel about it doesn’t really matter. There would be an abortion, because like you just could be Yeah, I mean, because they are not ready to deal with that medically. 


Yeah, so but it’s also one of those things where, you know, unless she’s Catholic, like, you’re certainly not going to force it on her. Now, to be fair, a lot of proposals of Martian outposts have required, sort of you don’t have the option. But to be on the pill, like men and women, you get a vasectomy, before you go to Mars kind of thing. So that might be a factor. But even aside from the childbirth thing, as soon as you have a situation where medical where you know, medical emergencies, industrial emergencies, agricultural emergencies can all be handled locally, which they would have to be, some people won’t want to leave, and then more people will come and they might not want to leave. And that’s not McMurdo, that’s not the reality of McMurdo, you won’t have a McMurdo Station, if it is self sufficient. And it has to be self sufficient. So that’s why I always kind of chafe at the idea of these people talking about how McMurdo Station is how it’s going to be, because it can’t be. It’s either going to be a city on Mars before too long, obviously, they’re not going to be self sufficient immediately. It’s going to be McMurdo Station for a little bit. But as soon as they reach self sufficiency, it’s either going to be a city on Mars that is effectively permanent. Or it’s going to be like the Martian, where they just land and then they’re there. And then they leave, and there is no permanent, like installation. 


I really like him. I really, really like my husband. 


I appreciate that. 


So my thoughts on the Antarctic stuff. Yeah, I whatever. I like the landscapes. I mean, I know it’s just it’s such a basic thing. But I’ve never really seen the landscapes of Antarctica and the rock, you see the ice all the time, just flat plains of ice, but they went to really cool places, 


I was really surprised by all of it. I loved seeing them do the work. And I, you know, was wishing that we got to see that a little bit more and the story. The seeing lacrosse, really put me off, there’s a moment where you get this shot of like, you know how, in the US, at least, you’ll just see like, in someone in some ones, farmland. They’re just like, there’s a cross or three crosses, and you’re just driving down the highway and you’re like over there. Right? Okay, there it is. And that happens in a shot and Antarctica. And it it just kind of took me out of the show. Interesting. And I surprising considering you’re a Christian. 


Right. But that doesn’t mean I think it needs to be everywhere, right? I feel like Antarctica is such a global community that I don’t want to if if I’m going to see something that’s faith based I want to see more than just one faith rather represented. However, it took me a minute because I guess it’s you know, they they kind of talked about how the hunt for life is like, believing in God. It’s a type of faith. And I was like yeah, okay, so I guess I understand why you put it the shot in there. It just I harbored a little bit of I don’t know this taste for seeing it there because I just kind of bumped on it well, because I think it’s because it’s such a hard difference between what everything else we’ve seen there which is so this is the science and then just seeing that pop of faith next to it that is that is specifically not based on science. 

Um Well, speaking of faith and sort of pilgrims, I did have to chuckle because we get some shots of isn’t Marta, is the scientist searching for life, I am terrible at picking up character names. That is the there’s a shot of her in Episode Four. That is cool. And it’s sort of carried through five and six of her searching for life. And she’s out on the surface in these very desert scenarios, and I was getting strong echoes of Anne Claiborne from the Mars trilogy. 

This is the the character who represents the Reds in the Mars trilogy, who don’t believe in terraforming because she has fallen in love with Mars itself as it exists right now. And she’s often out on the surface going on these long hikes. And it was just funny because it’s this very and Claiborne image, but it’s the exact opposite of an Claiborne’s. She’s looking for life, instead of enjoying the barren sort of environment. So we get to episode five, and they’re having a power crisis because Richardson is a dumb ass. Well, and 


because we have the fakest storm I’ve ever seen. 


Yeah. Very happy. Oh, my goodness, the art. 


Yeah, I 


didn’t like it. It looked like something out of like a Percy Jackson film or something, you know, just like, 


more mythological than scientific. Yeah. 


It was like, yeah, this is the storm that happened before Noah’s Ark. Like, 


I don’t know. It’s just it’s not a dust storm on Mars. This is you have angered Zeus. 


I mean, it was it was beautiful. It was just so ridiculous. Yeah, 


that’s not what dust storms look. Yeah. I mean, of course, both the Martian and this, you got to play up the drama of a dust storm because dust storms are fundamentally super boring, especially on Mars, because the The atmosphere is so thin that it can’t actually hold a ton of dust. So if you were on a, if you were in a Martian dust storm in real life, it would not be like, you know, sort of pushing your way through the fog. And you can’t see the rover that you just left a couple of minutes ago that it would be like a slightly foggy day, like you would be able to see the thing clearly it would not be pushing you around. I mean, it would just be the horizon that fuzzes 


right. And now, you said that dust storms are boring, and I will tell you that they are not. And so well one of them. I mean, on Mars, yes. 


But well, that’s what I mean on Mars. They’re there. 


I don’t know if any of you guys have ever been in like a true dust storm. When I was in Malta, studying abroad. There you guys this? One of the coolest things and most terrifying was a dust storm came up from Northern Africa and came across the Mediterranean. And it rained through the dust storm. It was raining mud. It felt like revelations, it was biblical weather. 


Oh my god, I was standing at a bus stop going, oh my god. Like, is this Are these the end times like what is happening? I had a mean it. But it was it was a phenomenal experience. And one of the you know, one of the scientists talks about it, how I don’t remember where he’s from in Africa. But he talks about the dust storms and how people would get very lost. Yeah. And they bring that to this show. And I don’t think that they needed to. I think that it could have to me it would be really cool to see it played out the way that it would actually look. Because it gives us a sense of the real danger rather than this. heightened. 


Yeah, in a way it would almost feel more hopeless. Because it would instead of like huddling in the dark against the storm raging outside, which we’ve seen plenty of times in stories set on Earth. It would be like you walk outside and everything kind of looks okay. Except you look up and it’s just dark. It’s just like the night that wouldn’t end. 


And that would be more depressing. Yeah. Really hard on people mentally. 


Yeah. Because it’s like there’s nothing to fight against. It’s just dark. And it’s so simple. And yet so unsolvable. Yeah, I feel like that would be better drama. 


And what it does is they talk about how they are one complication away from total power, like, failure and stuff. Yeah. And I’m sitting here going, Oh, my God. You let a woman come in here and make some decisions that put you in this position to have zero redundancies. This is insane, terrible plan then, immediately after we hear that because we know that the full storm protocol like the it takes five to nine weeks for the storm to pass. And so we learn all of this stuff, and then we get Paul being like, about his plants. They were only babies. Yeah, and I’m sitting here going. He’s such a creep. The way that he has anthropomorphized his lab is just 


Yeah, he’s, I mean, clearly this is this guy is not neurotypical like he’s clearly, you know, they don’t go into exactly what he’s got, but he’s got a and that’s and that’s fine. 


That doesn’t mean you can’t be mentally resilient but exact guy isn’t that 


that’s the problem to me is that they equate he’s weird with He’s scary. And those two things should not be equated like. Like, for example, if they had just swapped his storyline with his wife storyline, and you had somebody who like, came in all full of piss and vinegar, and she’s gonna throw her weight around. And then when everything started going wrong, she just started started kind of gripping harder and harder, and she wasn’t handling it that well. And eventually, she snapped. That would make sense. And then Meanwhile, her husband, who is, you know, a little weird, and a little too attached to his plants just gets depressed the way she does, that would have made way more sense. But instead, we have frickin Dolores Umbridge coming into this to this out. And just making everybody mad do making every wrong decision. She’s never shown to do the right thing. Never in the show, is she shown doing something that is just unequivocally clearly right. And then going on these bitter rants about how nobody could have expected this even though she was warned by everybody to expect this. And like I did everything right? No, you clearly did not like it’s just a weirdly sort of polarized character. Yeah. And then we cut to her husband, the plant guy ranting Shakespeare quotes at his plants, 


that the writers really like to use the biblical and the Shakespearean, and the philosophical, like they go overboard and a way that I just, you know, Alex and I bonded over Shakespeare, 


yeah, we love what we love, good Shakespeare quote. 


And we do not just toss them around, toss those quotes around all the time, 


especially not in dramatic moments. Like, we’ll toss those quotes around when it’s funny, but when, when the shit is hitting the fan, when lives are in danger, you get to work, you don’t quote Shakespeare, 


and I, you know, I went to theater school, and the theater nerds didn’t do this. And listen, I went to school with a gal who had a tattoo that said, untimely ripped, from what from his mother’s family ripped. 


Thank you. And I mean, it was a huge tattoo, and she’s not quoting this stuff. And yet here is a whole group of people that all they do is like, quote, philosophy, and will heiresses and Shakespeare in each other. And it just like, it kind of drove me crazy. Because it took me out. I was like, No, this is not how normal people talk. 


Yeah, let’s bring some scientific realism into the human interactions here, something bring it in somewhere. 


But of course, the way this world is written, this is how people talk. Because even when they’re not quoting things, they use phrases like, finally, when we thought it could only get darker, there was light. That’s not a quote, that’s just Hannah talking. Like, that’s not how people talk. That’s not these kind of things. You know, one of the things that jumped out at me in the first few episodes, and I, if I talked about this in the last episode, forgive me, I don’t think I did. But there are these sort of categories of stories, right? They’re often represented as man versus something or humanity versus something. So it’ll be like, you know, man versus man is a story where two people are fighting. You know, man versus man versus God is somebody struggling against fate? You know, they’re all these things. One of the oldest and most core narratives is man versus nature. And that’s what a lot of the things we’ve talked about the synthesis are that’s what I think, actually, probably everything we’ve talked about the synthesis is, is it fighting against your environment, Apollo 13, gravity, the Martian Mars, like all of these things are fighting against the environment. But here’s what a lot of these writers didn’t get the memo on, is that man versus nature stories don’t need deeply flawed characters. Man versus nature stories are best paired with not like perfect Paragons, but people who are fundamentally capable and optimistic things like Apollo 13 things like the Martian. These stories work best when the hero is doing everything that the audience wishes they would try. You know, it’s it’s like in horror movies where everybody’s sitting there going don’t go beyond the closet like you know, don’t die. Tom Hanks is so good in those movies. Exactly. Because he seems like somebody who is trying everything that you would want him to try and isn’t making stupid, he’s capable 


and he’s cheerful and he’s optimistic. I mean, 


Exactly the one with Wilson. Castaway, 


Castaway. Like. He’s He’s perfect for those kinds of roles because he has that. That buoyant personality 


the way it is, it’s not all of these depressing characters. And here’s the thing, when you 

don’t have leads like that, it actually works against you, when you try to do the stereotypical screenwriter thing of having deeply flawed characters who had to grow over a journey. The audience ends up feeling cheated. Because why would I care about this person, they’re an idiot, you know, like, you watch gravity, you watch these shows where the person is freaking out. And whether or not that’s realistic. Spoiler alert, we would all be freaking out if we were in gravity. But even though it’s realistic, we, as an audience are looking at these characters going, why are you doing that? And it pulls us out of the story, it makes the story less impactful than it would have been if they were sort of unrealistically perfect. And that is something that Mars keeps getting hit with over and over and over, because like, I don’t care about Richardson, cuz she’s doing everything wrong. She’s a very realistic person. I’ve known many Dr. Richardson’s in my life. But she’s doing everything wrong. And so I don’t care. You know, 


I’m with you. Yeah, one of the things that I do like about this episode are they talk, they do a couple of things that it’s not many. Okay. But you know, they talk about how dust storms can go global. And they’re not just regional, which I had never really considered that that could happen, and then they can get charged, and then there can be lightning on top of it. And all of that was just kind of fascinating to hear for, you know, my perspective is the regional that’s what it is here. Right. So like, why would it be any different elsewhere, the fact that it can cover an entire planet, it’s why it’s why you don’t have to make these dust storms, more like crazier than then they actually already are, if they can go global and 


be 30 kilometers high. And, and and have 


lightning, you’re, it’s you don’t have to work any harder for it. 


It’s been handed to you just do that. 


Exactly. And then the fact that it’s like talcum powder, it’s so fine. It’s not even like sand. That means that it can get in anywhere. And that’s terrifying. And they tell us, you know, you can’t get this stuff in your lungs. Of course, then they turn around and they show it as being in the cafeteria, like on the tables. And 


I was like gentle dusting over a pile of books. And it’s like, everybody’s dead. Right? Yeah. That’s how that works. We just we were just told that if you get this stuff in your lungs, you die. Yeah, yeah. So at the end of Episode Five, we do get the very dramatic moment of Paul having his hallucination, which plays out over the course of about half an hour, 


we have completely skipped so much of this episode, go for it. We’ve got the high seas is, and I want to talk about it. Because they talk they talk about this, like, okay, so NASA has its outpost where they send people to, you know, essentially pretend like it’s Mars. 


Yeah. And they in Hawaii, 


then they turn around, and they talk about how Russia did this. And they put people in his space craft. And they, they simulated all of this. And they had to shut it down because people went crazy. And like only two of the people like, you know, after all of the psychological review, two of the nine, or was it seven, whatever? Well, I don’t know total number Oh, nine or seven. But what I’m is that only two of them managed to not mentally break. And then they do this awful thing where they show all of the men coming out of the simulation, and everyone’s smiling and waving and it feels like super awkward because you just heard what went down in there, like someone’s wandering around in a spacesuit acting like a dog or a cow. And then if you look into it more, someone tried stabbing somebody else in their fistfights all the time. Like, this is insane. Yeah. And so that’s why that’s why it’s so bizarre to me that Paul is on this show, this character is written this way, because that person would have been not allowed from the get go because they can’t actually tell who’s going to be resilient enough to handle this. Yeah. And there are markers for it. You know, Emotional markers and all of that stuff. But they can’t promise anything. 

And I, I loved seeing the bits and pieces of that when we get to the documentary side, and we talk about high seas, 


yeah. And just not representing it in the narrative. This, it’s kind of a repeated theme in the show is talking about a really cool thing, and then not integrating it into the narrative. 


And they talk about how if you talk to people about the stress of prison, it’s a pretty good analogy, because they don’t get to make any of their own choices about what they do, when they do it. They don’t get to have their own schedule, like, 


cannot leave 


cannot leave that the stress of present. I mean, I have always thought that sounds like the loss of freedom, I think it would totally, completely mentally change you and rewire you. And a way that, you know, there are people that go back on purpose, because they can’t make it in the real world anymore, because they don’t have the support to do it. Because their brains have changed. 


They know how to live in this world. 


Yeah. And so I thought it was really cool that they talk about how mental resiliency is the biggest risk to the mission is that human aspect, and that you’d have to talk to people about the stress of prison. And as I thought, I thought that the documentary aspects of these episodes were the most fun, like, and I like I actively enjoyed them. 


Yeah, it’s you know, it’s funny that we’re coming right off of the Martian because they talk in the Martian about how Mark Watney was a catalyst for this in his crew that he, the role he filled in the Aries three team was that he sort of kept everyone’s spirits up, even in stressful times. And obviously, he was very capable. But they they sort of hint a little bit in the book that like, this is why he got the job, you know, that like we had other botanists, but he’s such a good effect on morale, that that was the deciding factor. And one of the things that was, again, just another sort of symbol of how the narrative side of this show kind of doesn’t match up to what the documentary side is talking about. In Episode Five, when they’re trying to conserve power, there are so many things that they don’t do, like it’ll cut to an exterior shot of the of the outpost, and there are all these lights on, on the exterior of the building. Why do those lights even exist? But especially if they exist? Why are they on right now, when you’re trying to conserve power? You know, they show everybody kind of huddled up and freezing and very clearly, like the heater isn’t working, but they’re all alone in separate rooms. They’re not like huddling up. And most importantly, nobody is trying to keep anybody’s spirits up. And that, to me is sort of the most damning thing in this episode is it’s a whole episode about your mental state, and what you have to do to get along in this environment, and nobody is saying, Hey, guys, let’s break out the vodka like, this sucks. Let’s tell stories. Let’s get a fire going or whatever, you know, like, just Hey, I brought a guitar, let’s sing some songs. Just all that kind of campfire stuff that people do to get along. nobody’s doing. And 


Hannah’s not doing quite specifically, which is weird. I yeah, we see in this episode, specifically, the number of ways she fails. But 


I you think it would be a mandate like you think that the Elan musk guy back on Earth would be like getting on the radio being like, I don’t care if you don’t want to sing, you’re gonna sing. Yeah, that’s what we’re doing today. It’s on the schedule, 


right. Um, one of the things that I noticed about this, so you know, the two guys go out in the rover, they’re going to try and fix the reactor. And this is one of my favorite moments. And they have this, this moment where they say, one of them says we’re gonna be okay. 

And the other one says, Well, you know, I hope so. And then they laugh, and it’s a little bit hysterical, they’re starting to crack just a little bit together. And I feel like that’s what really close friends are going to do. And it when they’re going through trauma together, and it felt very real. It felt I was like, Oh, this is like, I want to live in this moment. But um, 


I will say all of the original crew did a good job of feeling like they’ve known each other for years now. And there was this subtle sense of we’re the sort of the originals and then there are these new people. 


So one of the things that I really like is you know, the guy goes out he tethers himself to the rover, he untethered himself, which I don’t enjoy, but and then doesn’t communicate like doesn’t even attempt to communicate with Javier, which just drives me crazy. It’s like the lack of communication as well. But what I want to know is what’s, what is the difference between the risks that Watney takes, and the risks that these people take? Because when Watney took risks, I enjoyed it. And when these people take risks, I get really mad. 


Oh, I think it’s I think it’s a very simple and straightforward thing, which is our trust in His capability. That when Mark Watney takes risks, we have already established at this point that whatever happens, he’ll deal with it. And he has probably already tried every other option other than this, and done the math on why it’s not going to work. But if he does this, if it goes wrong, here’s what I’ll do. We know like the story of Mark Watney is handling problems, whereas this gang, it’s just not like this. The story of these astronauts is stuff going wrong and then being bummed puzzled. Yeah, like it’s just any any crisis is met with long worried looks, which is exactly what happens in the next scene. They get the reactor up. And then you have Paul, clearly clearly out going crazy. 


And he full on hallucination, like yeah, just stressed. He’s actually having a psychotic break. 


And Hannah does nothing. She watches it from a screen they call Dr. Richardson down. But yeah, nobody goes in there to check on him to restrain him. There’s no announcement over the PA of Hey, everybody get out of that wing. And apparently that 


they do try to evacuate the wing. But it’s after this has already happened. That’s what I’m saying 


is it takes a long time for them to do that. Yeah, she doesn’t make any choices to start with 


the hurt Richards and literally stands in the doorway with the evidence of what is about to happen and a grief stricken look on her face, and then turns and runs away without conveying the critical information of what is about to happen. Well, and but the thing is, is even without her knowledge, Hannah should have done something. Yeah. And she does nothing. And that’s absolutely bizarre to me. And what’s even more bizarre is that this entire portion of the hab is itself an air lock, there’s a wide open, there’s a door straight to the outside. 


If I can’t open a door on a passenger airline, that door should not be able to open like First off, it should be like welded, shut. Second, it should be locked. And third, it should be remotely controlled from the room that Hannah is in. Even if somebody wanted to open it and could open it, she ought to be able to hit one button that just locks it down. Yeah. And it’s bizarre that they that that isn’t a thing. Like that’s probably the single least realistic thing. And his entire show is the idea that the guy who is who is exhibiting mental stress, like clear signs of mental distress is in the room with an exterior door that he can just open. 


Yeah, why? 


And there are no other you know, like you were saying it’s that whole like wing of the outpost that gets depressurized, it’s not just his room. That’s 


totally bizarre. And I and I can’t stand it and it makes me very angry. And so when I talk about hating someone more than commander Ben, I’m talking about Dr. Richardson. And so anyway, 


I will say this before we move on to episode six because it’s, you know, we’re time is moving on, but I will say this about the end of Episode Five. One thing I really liked about the depressurization sequence is it’s finally what depressurization would look like. I’ve talked before on this show about the problem that I have with depressurization in science fiction is often depicted as a hurricane. And like you open a thing and all of a sudden this air is whooshing out over the course of minutes. And people are like holding on to a steel beam as they get blown like a flag in the wind and the air just keeps flying out. You’re like where’s all this air coming from? And I think the analogy that I used in an earlier episode is if you had a if you had a depressurization like that, it wouldn’t feel like a hurricane, it would feel like you were inside a balloon that popped. And all of a sudden, everything would just go boom, straight toward the exit. And then it would be over all the air would be gone. There would just be a blast that direction and everything would get sucked out. 


Exactly. And so that is what we see in this moment. He opens the door and the instant that it is even like a crack open, it flies open his body is sucked out all the furniture in the room moves toward the door, and then it settles. And we’re done. 


Yeah, yeah. 


I really appreciate it. 


I so there’s something in here that I mean, we’ve completely skipped over the CEO and how just terrible He is weirdly reckless he is. Yeah, 


again, sort of upsettingly realistic, but still dumb. 


So but I’m going to continue skipping over him because I could I could probably speak to most of an episode on all of the things he does wrong. 


Yeah, as as business owners, we have a unique take on him. And everything else. 


Yeah. Yes, in addition to everything else, but um, I, I have. This is like more of a philosophical thing rather than to the episode specifically. So we see that, uh, you know, I’m going to kind of jump to the end. Is that okay? Yeah. Okay. So like, Brandon commented, you know, the convenient plot devices, they’re going to be, they’re going to be brought back home. And because people have died, there, there is loss of, of political will to continue being on Mars. Again, this 


is one of those upsettingly realistic things. Yes. I 100% believe that if somebody killed themselves on Mars, that people would want to shut down the whole program. It’s stupid as hell but yes, 


it is. It’s very, it’s very dumb, because like the Hannah character, she has, she has made her peace with dying on Mars, but her sister can’t handle it. And I just like, and so she’s like, bring them home. So anyway, I feel like there’s another convenient plot device is Oh, Marta finds life, 


just in the neck just in the nick of time. And we keep seeing this just in the nick of time stuff. Except for when people die. But I hate this. I hate that she finds life on Mars. And I think to me, and I’d love to hear what you guys have to say about it. But to me, finding life is not the point of going into space. There are so many good reasons to go into space. And this is not high on my priority list. 


Yeah, it would be an incredible discovery but reducing it down to the Savior moment. This is the pivot point. This is the binary world where as soon as you find life Everything is fine. misses the point. Yeah, like there’s so much else to do on the lesson. 


NASA brings so much back for us I mean, I think I think most people know that cat the fact that CAT scans exist that’s because of NASA but like insulin Patil much more dust busters. Like the the soles on your tennis shoes, fire fire fighters, and their and their insulation, the insulation of those insulation in your homes like all of this is because of NASA, all of it. There are so many reasons to go into space, we do so much work to be able to stay there and to learn new things. And they bring so much back for us. It propels our society forward in a way that we would otherwise be a little bit slower about or maybe not come up with ever because, listen, if we’re not willing to bring down the prices of insulin, who say that we would have ever come up with insulin pumps, like there are all of these capitalism makes a lot of makes us fail a lot. And I this is not like a political rant. It’s just the fact that science is so important to progress. Yeah. And why is it that life is the only thing that would keep us on Mars? Yeah. And I would even just 


even just within the context of the show, like Paul was a creep and ultimately not well adjusted on Mars, but he was developing super crops. Like, why is that on its own not worth continuing to fund. 


Exactly. I would be very interested in what everybody else thinks of like, what their if you’re interested in, in humans being a spacefaring civilization. Why, what what is your number one priority? If you if you were part of a Martian outpost? Would you put the search for life at the top? Or would you put scientific advancement at the top or would you put economic investment? 


And I’m not saying that, if your priority is finding life that that’s, you know, wrong. That’s wrong. I’m not I’m saying it’s wrong for this story. Yeah. I just felt like it was it was an odd. I mean, it’s not an odd choice because it’s highly melodramatic TV. So I guess it’s predictable, but Me, I just felt like it was, it was an overblown choice. 


Yeah, I did think within the context of the story, I thought this was what they needed to save the day they did it, they did a decent job of like, everything’s gone wrong, of course, they’re going to end it. I genuinely bought the fact that it was going to be over. And that the show was going to end with sort of like, Don’t let this happen. We have to go to Mars Don’t let it fail. And then this turned and then all of a sudden Of course, yes. Now they’re going to stay that Yeah, that was the the turn that they needed. 


And you know that the that the CEO guy, I don’t know what his neither know what his name nor his actual title is The Ilan musk analogy, analog sorry. He, like they do in the documentary side of this show, you know that that guy is going to get the credit for launching a new civilization and it? Yeah, that bothers. I had like a whole rant about this. Because at one point, someone says, you know, Elon Musk is going to to launch a new civilization. And I was like, No, he’s not. June, Space X might be you want to know what SpaceX encompasses all of the scientists who work to get everybody there. I’m sorry. It’s not just the money that launches a new civilization. It’s the engineers. It’s Oh, oh, yeah. This is the part where I get a little red because I just I am so tired of seeing the credit given to one person, 


and especially the financier. Yeah, like, at least in the space race with the Soviets. The rock stars were often the scientists, you know, Verner von Braun. And, and these sorts of people were front and center, but like, Can you name a single scientist at SpaceX chime chime in, in the comments if you can name one scientist who works at SpaceX on on these reusable   

rockets that are going to take us to Mars? I can’t. I’m a pretty big space nerd and I can’t name any Okay. What it’s it’s it’s this dichotomy that you know, back in the day, people knew names like Verner von Braun. These days, we only know the financier. We know Elan musk. That’s 


and I get it. He has a vision and the his vision people have latched on to and that’s important that has done great things that helps us propel the program, I get it. And I don’t want to diminish that. However, it is I the idea that he would get sole credit for starting a new civilization made me want to rip my hair out. And, you know, but 


and by the way, up there in the least realistic things in this entire show, is the fact that June gets to make the announcement that there’s life on Mars, the Elon Musk analog was standing quietly to the side on the podium, like on the stage, it was her at the podium and him like six feet away from her just looking down with his hands crossed. Bull shit. Yeah, that guy is absolutely grabbing the microphone. Yeah, they’ve established that. 


I do have to say that watching the success of the, in the documentary side, watching the success of the rocket returning and landing on the launch pad had me seriously choked up. I 


that was some really powerful stuff. 


It was a I just I think that it’s amazing that humans can do something that incredible it is, you know, we could diminish it by thinking of it as like reversing a car. No, absolutely not. It’s a whole other thing. It’s not like flying a plane. It’s none of it’s, it’s nothing we’ve ever seen before. And again, you see a room full of people who have been working on it. And and that’s not even the number. There are so many more people who have been working on it. And I just I loved it for them for humans in general. Yeah, but I loved it for them as well. And yeah, inspiring. 


I will say to like, you know, Ilan musk should not get the exclusive credit for taking us to Mars. But he does. He has done things that nobody else has done before. He definitely gets some credit. And I will say part of that SpaceX sequence that really got to me was his personal elation. He starts shouting it standing up and standing up. Like he’s personally freaking out. Well, I want to I kind 


of wanted to know, because you know, he’s watching it come in, and he’s like, Oh, that looks this looks bad. This looks bad. Yeah. And I want to know what they thought was going wrong. 


I think my read of the scene was that he thought that it should be burning already. Because there’s a while that it just falls. It’s just falling from the sky and Everybody’s freaking out and he goes, something’s wrong, something’s wrong and it cuts to the people inside and they’re all kind of like getting tense. And then finally fire shoots out the bottom of it and it starts decelerating and everybody freaks out so I think it was that it was supposed to fire off earlier. Yeah, well, but yeah, very powerful sequence. It was a powerful 


sequence and I and I enjoyed watching it. I know that we kind of jumped all over with this episode. 


But it’s it’s this episode. To be honest, I don’t have as many notes about this episode. It doesn’t have as much going on. Well, everybody’s just kind of getting ready to go home and sad about it. 


I mean, that’s true. I have a lot kind of notes on the on the documentary side because it’s the part that I enjoyed so much. I really like this quote from Verner von Braun, where he says, if something blows up in your face, you have to try again try again try again. And as like that’s that’s the that’s why this man specifically managed so much is he has the perseverance to make this to make space programs work. And I 


and it’s worth mentioning Verner von Braun does not have like he is not clean. He did some terrible things. Now, a lot of people hate Verner von Braun and they’re not wrong. Yeah. Absolutely. Verner von Braun is actually one of the examples that I often reach for when talking about the difference between immoral and amoral. I would characterize Verner von Braun as pretty much the definition of amoral Verner von Braun wanted to land on Mars. And he didn’t really care if that meant helping Hitler to do it. Like he he wasn’t out to do evil things. He just didn’t care if his work was used for evil things as long as it was advancing the mission. And that’s kind of messed up. Like that’s pretty much just kind of Yeah, that’s that is quite messed up, he made the v2 rockets that reigned fear on on England, there’s actually a quote, when when the first v1 rocket, I think, was first used to kill people, because that was not his original intention. He wanted to build a space program from the Nazis. But the the quote is, the rocket performed perfectly. It just landed on the wrong planet. Which I feel like there’s something kind of heartbreaking about that quote, because you can hear in that sentiment, that even he feels like this is being perverted. You know, this is not what he wanted to be building. But he kept building it. You know, he just was that obsessed with rockets. And with getting to space, he’s not a perfect guy. But at the same time, he is representative of this drive to explore this absolute refusal to stay put on one world. And that is not just evil, you know, like there is there is value in that as well. And, yeah, he’s you know, there’s a there’s a thing that happens in this episode, where they talk about Apollo 13. And Apollo 13 was very clearly the inspiration for this episode. Because what happened with Apollo 13 was everything went wrong, it scared a whole bunch of people specifically, it scared Nixon, and then they kind of said, No more space. Let’s not do that anymore. Like we don’t want to really, which is freaking bizarre, which is stupid, I don’t know. Go ahead, 


well, just just to wrap up for anybody who hasn’t seen. So what they did instead was they invested in the space shuttle, and the space shuttle is great for getting to orbit and coming back. It’s a space plane and you can go up and you can repair Hubble and you can visit the International Space Station and nothing else, the space station, the space shuttle will not take you to the moon, it will not take you to Mars, it was a commitment to go as far as we had gone and no further. And so even though the space shuttle is held up as this sort of great symbol of space exploration, a lot of space exploration, people hate it, because it’s the symbol of the death of the space program. 


And my thing, ultimately, is I don’t know why the lives of the astronauts are more important than other lives, we are constantly putting lives at risk for various reasons. And why are astronauts the exception to the rule? Well, especially because you know, there’s so Lacey and I, along with anybody in popular culture these days, watch a lot of superhero stuff. And I in particular, really enjoy superhero stuff. But 


there are several things that if you watch a lot of superhero stuff you get tired of and one of them is my God. Everybody needs to stop saying don’t put yourself at risk. I will. That’s like every superhero and every single TV show every single episode, they’re saying, No, no, no, you don’t do this. I’ll do it. And then the other person will respond. You don’t have to do that. I’ll take care of it. And it’s like what somebody just do it like it’s okay. Everybody’s willing to risk their lives. Let’s go risk our lives together and save the day and That’s how I feel about these astronauts. They’re willing to risk their lives, 


let them and CEO guy does that. He says that, you know, they they knew what they were getting into. They’ve made their peace with this. We all 


knew what they were getting into. And that’s surprising. Yeah, you could die on Mars. And you know what, if you have regrets, that sucks. 


But you signed up for it. Yeah. And, you know, if there’s a chance that you can go home, and that can be made to happen, you’ll be on the you’ll be on the list. Yeah. But for everybody else. They know what the hell they’re doing and what they’re getting into. I’m sorry, but it’s like saying, I’m going to go be in the military. Yeah, 


we don’t, you don’t get to join the army, and then raise objections because you might die. That’s what the army is man. And like you do trust that they won’t waste your life, that there is a certain assumption that if you die for the cause, that that will be necessary. But at the same time, you might die for the cause. So like, he 


doesn’t feel callous to say, they knew what they were getting into. Yeah. 


And yes, you don’t want to waste and they’re Heroes for it. Like, there’s a certain point at which if you saved every soldier, in all sorts, in every circumstance, if you prevented anybody from ever dying for the country, and you gave up whatever it took to keep them from dying, you’re actually preventing their heroism, like they are willing to sacrifice themselves for their country. And we should let them because the fight needs to agree. Like we don’t want to we don’t want to over blow No, but like, that’s an overblown argument, because but if the choice is lose a bunch of American soldiers to defeat the Nazis, or don’t defeat the Nazis, right, the answer is, you let some of them die to defeat the Nazis, because it’s worth it. And that’s just that’s what this feels like, yeah, you’re going to lose people because of the science and they want to be a part of it. 


They’re volunteers. And I don’t I don’t know why we don’t have the political will to handle that. It’s, it’s the, it’s the downside of humanism is we as a society have decided that the most important thing is human lives, which is generally good, we won’t trade lives for, you know, resources, or for equipment or whatever, that’s a good thing. But what that means is that anything that threatens human life is bad. There’s nothing in this world that causes death. That is good. And you know what, there just are sometimes, like, sometimes it’s worth dying for people’s lives for a lot less. Yeah. And in earlier eras, when exploration was still a thing on this planet. I actually have written in my notes, no one cried for the Cowboys. You know, if you went west, in America, you might die. And nobody, like, wrung their hands over the great tragedy that was all the people dying on the frontier. No, that’s just what happens on the frontier and like, you might survive, or you might not, and if you survive, you might not live as long as you had, as you might have if you lived in New York, but that’s what it means to live on the frontier. And it’s it, it is especially, I feel like it is a betrayal that June is the one arguing that they need to shut us down. I feel on that infuriated. I feel like Hannah would kick your ass. Yeah, you know, your sister would beat the shit out of you if she knew what was happening in these meetings. Yeah, 


absolutely. There would be a rift when she gets home. 


Absolutely. I mean, there I feel like they’re kind of already is one brewing and the episode, she talks about how, you know, I was crying when I woke up because the dream was over. Do you hear me? You know? Yeah. Yeah. So that I will say, unless you have just kind of wrap up. Okay. I have a moment that spoke to me, on the documentary side spoke to me more than probably anything else in the show. And I don’t really know why it wasn’t a new sentiment. But I think it was just the passion with which it was delivered. And it came from Robert Zubrin, who is, you know, he does good work, he advances the cause of Mars. He’s a little bit of a kook. And sometimes I feel like he kind of needs to step out of the spotlight because you’re giving space people a bad name. Because you’re just a little weird. 

But Lord knows he’s devoted his life to the pursuit of getting humans to Mars. And a lot of what he says is sort of cheesy, or it’s sort of cliche, he definitely leans into that just sort of spirit of discovery that is too abstract to really motivate a lot of people. But he has a quote in this episode that really kind of got me which is, look up, look up. There’s everything out there. And I feel like that is so broad, that it kind of comes back around to being specific. There’s everything out there. And of course, you could take that literally to mean there are planets and stars. There’s the whole rest To the universe. But to me what it what it made me think of is potential. Like there’s, there’s music out there, they’re stories out there, their families out there, there’s history out there, there are going to be wars out there. But then there are going to be peace treaties out there, there’s going to be discovery, yes, on a scientific level. But there’s also going to be, you know, parties among friends who love each other they’re going to be, there’s everything that is life out there. And that’s why we go to space, we don’t go to space to discover if there are microbes under rocks, and we don’t go to space to refine equations, we go to space, because there’s everything out there. And it just, it just got me. 


Yeah, it did not do all of that for me. But I love what it inspired. any of that is very sweet. I think ultimately, what we can say is that we enjoyed the documentary side of this show that the narrative aspect was a trash fire. And hey, 


very well intentioned, trash fire. They were aiming for the right thing. They just didn’t hit the mark. 


But I think that there, there was value to just, I would like to just see this as a straight up documentary. Yeah. And I, you know, I’m interested in seeing someone else pick up this, this way of storytelling. Yeah, it’s documentary and a narrative and not just documentary and recreation.    


Yeah, the sound is hybrid storytelling is cool. I’d like to see more of it in different contexts. I like to see a version of this for like ancient Rome. Yeah. 


So I mean, they’ve they’ve hit on something interesting. I don’t think it was perfected the first time out of the gate. But I’m, I’m curious to see. I’m not curious to see where this show goes. But I’m curious to see where another show goes that similar to this. So hopefully, we will enjoy the next thing more than our last couple of weeks. Because we love to enjoy things. Yes. 


So it is not our mode to criticize. Yeah. So 


I think that’s it. 


I think that’s it. 


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